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| Posted by gestalt uskidscompute.com 3/09/2003 10:22:25 Play online chess |  Subject: Analyze this (please!)Message: I've just finished a game of over 90 moves board #602059 . It ended as a draw (insuffient material) which I had to try and find for about 40 moves. I'm wondering whether my opponent should have been able to force the win. I had my king and rook, he had king and queen. The position at move 57 was white Kd6, Qc8 and black Kb3, Ra4. My strategy was to keep his king from combining with the queen to force a mate, by positioning my rook on a rank between his king and mine. It worked but should it have? |
| Posted by jean_marc uskidscompute.com 3/09/2003 14:42:04 Play online chess | white should have won... Message: After a hole lot of thinking I came up with: 65.Qd4! Ka2 66.Qf2+ Ka3 67.Qf1 Rh4+ 68.Kc3 Ka2 69.Qa6+ Kb1 70.Qb5+ And the outcome is obvious. |
| Posted by cinabrio uskidscompute.com 3/09/2003 14:45:46 Play online chess | White win at move 67 Message: Black´s 65th move 65...Rh3?? is a terrible mistake, cause it breaks the basic rule of this kind of final: the player with the rook has to move his rook nearly his king. After 66.Qd2+ Ka3 white should have played 67.Qd7! with an immediate win. For example: 67...Rh6 68.Kc3 Rh4 69.Qa7+ Ra4 70.Qe7+ Ka2 71.Qe2+ followed by 72.Qb2#. ——— Hou Yifan, Defending Women's Champion, Is Likely to Keep Title — The match for the Women’s World Chess Championship is all but over. On Monday, after six games of the best-of-10 match, Hou Yifan, the defending chess champion, led her challenger, Humpy Koneru, 4 points to 2. Hou only needs 1.5 points in the last four games to clinch the title, making her lead almost insurmountable. The chess match, which began Nov. 14 in Tirana, Albania, is in some ways as much a competition between the two most populous countries as it is a contest between two individuals. Hou is Chinese and Koneru is Indian. The overall world chess champion is Viswanathan Anand, another Indian, and Koneru is ranked No. 2 among women, while Hou is No. 3, so Indians may ... |
| Posted by myway316 uskidscompute.com 3/09/2003 14:49:53 Play online chess | Sorry,Jean_Marc... Message: ...but 65...Ka2 is impossible,as the BK is already on a2,from #64. ——— Milestone for a Benefactor of Historic Matches — Jacqueline Piatigorsky, one of the most important figures in American chess in the 1960s, turned 100 this month. Piatigorsky, a member of the Rothschild banking family, was married to the cellist Gregor Piatigorsky, and together they sponsored three significant chess events. The first was a 1961 match between Bobby Fischer and Samuel Reshevsky, the two best American chess players. It was a best-of-16 match, and after 11 games, each man had won twice and the other games were draws. And that is how it ended. Fischer quit after a fight with Mrs. Piatigorsky over the scheduling of the 12th game. (Fischer wanted an afternoon game so he could sleep in, and she wanted a morning game so she ... |
| Posted by myway316 uskidscompute.com 3/09/2003 14:56:29 Play online chess | Nice piece of analysis,Cinabrio... Message: ...but after 66.Qd2+ Ka3 67.Qd7,where is the win after 66...Rb3? ——— Joys of Chess: From KrabbĂ© to Hesse — Christian Hesse's book The Joys of Chess: Heroes, Battles & Brilliances, published by New in Chess, was endorsed by the world chess champion Vishy Anand and Vladimir Kramnik. It is a compilation of chess stories, biographical sketches, chess games and fragments with references to art and science. The author is a professor of mathematics, and the book was first published in German. It resembles work previously done by Tim KrabbĂ©, a prominent Dutch writer, on his website Chess Curiosities. KrabbĂ© was born in the same year as Bobby Fischer (1943) and on the same day as Garry Kasparov (April 13). The combination of the two could have made him a strong chess player, but when he ... |
| Posted by gestalt uskidscompute.com 3/09/2003 15:07:22 Play online chess | Thanks for trying Message: but I still don't see it. Jean-marc as myway316 says your analysis is flawed because i'm already on a2 and cinabrio why would I play 67...Rh6. I would have returned to b3 (67. Qd7, Rb3) in line with the strategy i'd been using throughout. ——— Michael Adams and Gawain Jones impress at European Team Championship — Michael Adams won the individual top board gold medal in the European Team Chess Championship at Halkidiki in Greece, but the continued impressive advance of Gawain Jones, 23, was just as significant for English chess. Adams celebrated his fortieth birthday on Thursday by regaining his place in the world top 20, a ranking list where his peak a decade ago was at No4. Jones has just achieved a series of personal bests. His unbeaten 6/9 in the Euroteams followed quickly on a success at the Corsica Open, and he agreed an early draw in his final game in Greece to fly back to the UK in time for the opening weekend's play in Britain's 4NCL league. There he won both his games, including the elegant 16-move miniature featured ... |
| Posted by bartlebie uskidscompute.com 3/09/2003 15:09:59 Play online chess | after Rb3 Message: Qd6 wins the rook. ——— Medieval Foes With Whimsy — If, by some typically improbable turn of events, Homer Simpson were to unearth from his backyard an old chest containing a chess set from medieval times, what would the chess pieces look like? Chances are they would resemble the lovable little contestants beautifully carved from walrus tusks by anonymous artisans in the famous cache known as the Lewis Chessmen. Except for the pawns, which are shaped like tombstones and dome-topped, octagonal towers, each king, queen, bishop, knight and warder, as rooks used to be called, has the bug-eyed, stupefied expression of a Simpson. They could be Homer’s ancestors. You can judge for yourself: 34, all from the British Museum, are in “The Game of Kings: Medieval ... |
| Posted by gestalt uskidscompute.com 3/09/2003 15:16:21 Play online chess | bartlebie Message: how? |
| Posted by gestalt uskidscompute.com 3/09/2003 15:20:19 Play online chess | Message: I've always got 68.Qd6, Rc3+ |
| Posted by jean_marc uskidscompute.com 3/09/2003 15:20:39 Play online chess | Subject: Sorry... Message: I found a type errors in my last posting. In the game notation the number of the first move should be 67 instead of 65. cinabrio >>>5...Rh3?? is a terrible mistake<<< Can you suggest another move instead? Continuation off 67.Qd7 could be Rh4+ 68. Kc5 Rh2 And no quick mate in sight. |
| Posted by bartlebie uskidscompute.com 3/09/2003 15:31:28 Play online chess | Ah sorry, I thought it was g3. Message: Excuse me. I'd prefer Qd6 Ka2 Qd1. The idea is to get the white King to c3, so the black king is threatened to be mated from two sides. e.g. after Rb8 Qd7 black seems not to be able to chase the King away from c3. |
| Posted by gestalt uskidscompute.com 3/09/2003 15:50:52 Play online chess | Message: None of the analyses here by bartlebie or jean_marc seem to actually force a mate, because none of the responses that you are relying on black to make represent blacks best move. In each case black has a better alternative. I think black can force defend its position quite adequately (thats not to say that my chosen moves were the best for black). As long as the rook occupies a position that is both safe and stops the white king from getting near the black and avoids getting caught in a pincer this game could go on for ever without a win. The rook of course is able to threaten a pin on king and queen if they ever occupie the same rank or file. |
| Posted by jean_marc uskidscompute.com 3/09/2003 15:56:14 Play online chess | gestalt ? Message: >>>In each case black has a better alternative<<< plz, give me an example. |
| Posted by calmrolfe uskidscompute.com 3/09/2003 16:05:45 Play online chess | Howsabout Message: 66 Qd2+ Ka3 67 Qd4 Ka2 68 Qf2+ Kb1 69 Qf1+ and wins rook Kind regards, Cal |
| Posted by gestalt uskidscompute.com 3/09/2003 16:06:13 Play online chess | Jean_marc Message: what about Qf1, Rg3 |
| Posted by gestalt uskidscompute.com 3/09/2003 16:13:17 Play online chess | calmrolfe Message: The king would never go to b1 it is obviously a bad move and it has other options. I had a similar scenario on move 69. |
| Posted by kingslinger uskidscompute.com 3/09/2003 16:22:05 Play online chess | I put Fritz on your game.... Message: And it immediately found a forced win on move 67. Qd4! wins in all variations (all legal variations calculated by Fritz). Here is an example.67.Qd4 Ka2 68.Qf2+ Ka3 69.Qf1 Rh4+ 70.Kc3 Ka2 71.Qa6+ Kb1 72.Qd3+ Ka2 73.Qc2+ and white checkmates on next move. I went over all the variaitons and white can either force the win of the rook, or force checkmate, there are also endgame books showing that white has a forced win with Q vs. R, but the win is extremely difficult and many times in actual games, black gets a draw due to the 50-move rule, etc. |
| Posted by gestalt uskidscompute.com 3/09/2003 16:36:56 Play online chess | Jean_marc Message: ignore that last suggestion |
| Posted by jean_marc uskidscompute.com 3/09/2003 17:35:52 Play online chess | I coudn't :) Message: since 69.Qf1 Re3 70.Qa1# |
| Posted by jean_marc uskidscompute.com 3/09/2003 17:40:23 Play online chess | Dammit! :( Message: more type errors. I meant 69.Qf1 Rg3 70.Qa1# |
| Posted by caldazar uskidscompute.com 3/09/2003 18:32:15 Play online chess | Message: 65... Rh3 is not really a mistake, since the "best" move, 65... Ra8, doesn't hold out much longer anyway. kingslinger's analysis contains a few slight inaccuracies but is essentially the correct winning sequence. |
| Posted by kingslinger uskidscompute.com 3/09/2003 19:13:48 Play online chess | innaccuracies? Message: I just gave an example of one possible line, after clearly stating that all lines lose for black after 67.Qd4!, there are so many possible lines, that I just gave one example of a way black might try to defend...White plays perfectly in the line I give. |
| Posted by calmrolfe uskidscompute.com 3/10/2003 01:13:31 Play online chess | gestalt Message: I think my analysis is absolutely correct. If the King had chosen to go back to a3 it loses almost immediately Qf1 Rh4+ Kc3 and Black faces immediate mate Kind regards, Cal |
| Posted by judokausa uskidscompute.com 3/10/2003 01:28:31 Play online chess | lets look a bit farther back Message: First it is a fact that Q vs R endings can be won but as someone mentioned it can be a very tedious process so why not avoid it all together. 54. f6 would have won out right. (No freebies) one pawn queens the other is kept for a future queen. if you really must know here is a site in the ideas behind winning the QvR ending chess.spacecoast.org/ziatdinov/QvR1.html |
| Posted by cinabrio uskidscompute.com 3/10/2003 09:59:11 Play online chess | Response to myway316 Message: 66.Qd2+ Ka3 67.Qd7! Rb3?? 68.Qd1! +- |
| Posted by cinabrio uskidscompute.com 3/10/2003 10:02:55 Play online chess | gestalt Message: 67.Qd7! Rb3?? loses the game, although this is your "strategy". |
| Posted by sneaky uskidscompute.com 3/10/2003 12:25:07 Play online chess | queen vs rook Message: Queen vs rook is ALWAYS a win for the queen, but in practice it's one of the hardest endings to master and even GMs don't find the best continuations. I forget which GM it was who was unable to beat a computer after achieving a QvR ending, demonstrating how very tricky it is to win this kind of thing when the inferior side puts up the best defense. Capablanca in "Chess Fundamentals" has a good section on this ending. |
| Posted by jean_marc uskidscompute.com 3/10/2003 12:55:21 Play online chess | Karpov & Kasparov. Message: check the link that was provided by judokausa : chess.spacecoast.org/ziatdinov/QvR1.html |
| Posted by gestalt uskidscompute.com 3/10/2003 13:21:53 Play online chess | Thanks everyone Message: Thanks for the analysis. Now that I know that Q v R should be a win for the queen albeit sometimes a complex one I have a slight moral dilema. Next time I find myself in the same position should I resign honourably or should I try to defend it and try and frustrate my opponent into a drawn position. |
| Posted by jean_marc uskidscompute.com 3/10/2003 13:28:57 Play online chess | resign? Message: never... If your opponents wants to win then he/she need to prove their endgame skills. |
| Posted by astinkyfart uskidscompute.com 3/10/2003 14:21:35 Play online chess | another idea from a.p.i. Message: Instead of 85. Qc3, 85. Qh4+ Kb1 86. Kc3 is winning. There are several possible continuations. a) Ra2?? 87. Qd1# b) Re2?? 87. Qd1+ (^Qxe2) +- c) Rf2 87. Qd1+ Ka2 88. Qd5+ c.) Ka1 89.Kb3! (Qd1#, 89...Rf1 90. Qa5-a2-c2, 89...Rb2+ 90. Ka3 +-) c..) Kb1 89. Qb7+ Ka1 (Rb2?? 90.Qxb2, Kc1?? 90.Qh1+) 90. Qa7+ (^Qxf2) +1 d) Rg2?? 87. Qe4+ (^Qxg2) +- e) Rh2 87. Qe4+ Ka1 (Kc1?? 88. Qf4+[^Qxh2], Rc2+?? 88.Qxc2+) 88.Qa8+ Kb1 (Ra2?? 89.Qh1#) 89. Qb8+ (^Qxh2) +- f) Rb8 87. Qd1+ Ka2 88. Qd5+ +- (same pattern as note c) g) Rb7 87. Qd1+ Ka2 88. Qd5+ +- (same pattern as note d) h) Rb8 87. Qd1+ Ka2 88.Qd5+ Ka1 89. Qh1+ Ka2 90. Qh2+ +- (same pattern as note e) ----------------------------------------------- |
| Posted by cavturbo uskidscompute.com 3/11/2003 06:46:02 Play online chess | Message: If you go back to move 89 and he'd moved Qb3+ instead of Qd1+ white would of won whichever way black moved his king. If he used the rook to cover it would be mate in about 7. Or on move 91 Qe3 would also have won him the game. His move of Kb5 is the killer which gifted you a draw. |