| From | Message |
Posted by pawntificator
uskidscompute.com
3/01/2003
00:33:34
Play online chess |  Subject: Advantage of White
Message:
How many of you think that perfect chess should always be a draw?
Who thinks white should always be able to win with the advantage of moving first?
I suppose the question can never be definitively answered, but I like to think that white should always win.
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Posted by semper-fi
uskidscompute.com
3/01/2003
01:13:31
Play online chess |
Message:
Intresting thoughts there.
I don't think perfect chess is capable of happening on both
sides of the table. Otherwise it wouldn't be perfect...
perfect is implying that either white/black has played a
perfect game, and it is impossible for white to play a
perfect game if black is playing a perfect game. Perfect
would be white or black winning (which ever is perfect),
and winning is not a draw.
I'm not sure that white does infact have the advantage by
moving first. Black can always move based on whites
move, that is, because Black is "behind" a move, Black
must be reactive to White's moves, until White slips or
until Black gains an upper hand by somehow gaining a
move and putting itself a move ahead.
This sort of theory and thought is hard to think of, let alone
answer, I enjoy it though.
Feel free to tell me in wrong! :)
semp
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Posted by pawntificator
uskidscompute.com
3/01/2003
01:50:42
Play online chess | I've heard arguments
Message:
on chessgames.com that said black should always win, because the initial position is the strongest one, and since white moves first, he creates the first weakness, and should lose! I don't believe it though. Fischer said he thought it would be a draw, but I still think white should win.
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Chess Hustling, a Look Back — Part of the fabric of night life in New York City, particularly during the summer, are the street chess games. Dozens of chess players in places like Washington Square Park, Union Square and St. Nicholas Avenue and 141st Street are up all night, taking on all comers, for a few dollars a game. The games are fast and gritty and often peppered with non-stop and colorful banter. Chess hustling has been around for many years, but how and when did it begin? In 2007, a hustler named Kenny, who went by the name Little Daddy, and who had been hustling on the street for decades, said that the guy who started it all was a man named Bobby Haywood. He said that Haywood appeared one day in ...
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Posted by atrifix
uskidscompute.com
3/01/2003
02:07:29
Play online chess | Technically
Message:
no one knows what the outcome of the perfect game is. However, perfect chess simply has to be capable of happening on both sides of the board given the nature of chess itself--the number of moves from the initial position, though very large, is finite. Thus you could theoretically extrapolate all possible moves to checkmate/stalemate/insufficient material/etc. To say that 'perfect chess is a win' is like saying that perfectly playing tic-tac-toe is a win; yet no matter what you do, if your opponent plays perfectly (which, in the case of tic-tac-toe, is not very difficult), you can't win.
Today almost all GMs believe that chess is theoretically a draw (even Fischer, who was notorious for his incredibly strong play with White). A very few believe that White will win, and some very small number believe that Black will win. Personally, I believe that chess is a draw, but all of these are theoretically possible since chess has not yet been extrapolated to its conclusion.
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Carlsen Express Rolls on — The King’s Chess Tournament in Romania is turning into an exhibition. Magnus Carlsen, the Norwegian chess grandmaster who is the world’s No. 1 player, beat Teimour Radjabov of Azerbaijan on Monday, to run his winning streak in the chess event to four games. He leads the tournament with 5.5 points after seven rounds. Boris Gelfand of Israel, the only player not to lose to Carlsen so far, is in second place with 4.5 points, after beating Liviu-Dieter Nisipeanu of Romania on Monday. Carlsen and Gelfand play Tuesday. Though Carlsen has won the last three chess tournaments he has played (Amber, Corus and the London Classic), the last time he was on a roll like he is now was ...
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Posted by pawntificator
uskidscompute.com
3/01/2003
02:26:24
Play online chess | I guess we could start a whole new discussion
Message:
on whether or not the number of possible moves from the initial position actually IS finite. Perhaps it is infinite. It is certainly far beyond any limit of which I can conceive. If it was finite, they should have had a computer figure it out by now. I'm going with infinite on this one.
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Carlsen Sprints Ahead at King's Tournament — With a little good fortune, Magnus Carlsen is on a tear. Carlsen, the top seed, won his third game in a row at the King’s Chess Tournament in Romania on Sunday. This time, his victim was Ruslan Ponomariov of Ukraine, who was winning for most of the game. But then he blundered (23 Rf2? instead of 23 Kh1) allowing Carlsen to turn the tables. He was also a bit fortunate in Round 5, on Saturday, when he beat Liviu-Dieter Nisipeanu of Romania. In that game, Nisipeanu had a small advantage, but Carlsen employed a nice feint and Nisipeanu took the bait (17 Qd5, he should have played 17 Nd5), after which his position was very difficult. Carlsen, a Norwegian, now has 4.5 points and ...
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Posted by atrifix
uskidscompute.com
3/01/2003
02:35:59
Play online chess | The number of moves
Message:
must be finite, since all games eventually end. You can't just keep playing forever and ever due to things like the 50 move rule, stalemate, insufficient material, etc., which is what an infinite number of moves would presuppose. And if you count up the moves you can see that the number is finite--e.g., White only has 18 possible first moves, to which Black only has 18 possible replies, and the tree keeps on going. You can't add a finite number and a finite number and get an infinite number--in order to reach an infinite number of moves, a player would have to have an infinite number of possible moves at at least one move, which simply doesn't happen in chess.
And, well, computers aren't anywhere even remotely close to solving chess :) I've seen estimates that predict that the number of chess positions is larger than the number of atoms in the universe, so don't expect to see a definitive answer for awhile.
———
A Player Steps Up His Game and Wins the National Open — Chess players often talk of the creative aspect of chess — the role of imagination in conceiving strategies. Sometimes the desire to execute an original plan can overwhelm even the desire to win. Mikhail Tal, a former world chess champion, wrote in his autobiography that he had lost more than a few games because he had chosen a “beautiful” combination, only to discover that he had miscalculated. To borrow a baseball metaphor, a grand slam for a chess player would be to play brilliantly, win the game and defeat a strong opponent when there is a lot riding on the outcome. That is what Timur Gareev of Uzbekistan did in the final round of the National Open in Las Vegas last Sunday. He trailed ...
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Posted by pawntificator
uskidscompute.com
3/01/2003
03:02:14
Play online chess | all games end
Message:
Because you can only follow one branch of a tree. But at each move there are numerous possible places for numerous different pieces. I think that there is a ridiculous number of possibilities for only the first 4 moves of a chess game, like 80 million or some such a thing. The number of atoms in the universe! If that isn't infinite, then it defies comprehension, to say the least. But it may as well be infinite.
———
Timur Gareyev wins US National Open — Timur Gareyev, an Uzbek chess grandmaster who attends the University of Texas in Brownsville, won the US National Open last weekend in Las Vegas. Gareyev yielded a first-round draw to IM Joe Bradford of Texas but won his next five games. He was particularly tough on Southern Californians, inflicting defeats on IM Andranik Matikozyan and, in the final round, GM Varuzhan Akobian. Tied for second at 5-1 were Akobian and GMs Arthur Kogan (Israel), Alex Lenderman (New York) and Alejandro Ramirez (Costa Rica). Matikozyan tied for sixth at 41/2-11/2. There were 19 GMs in the 105-player Open section. Two Southern Californians, Danyul Lawrence and 12-year-old Michael W. Brown, shared ...
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Posted by sumsar
uskidscompute.com
3/01/2003
07:10:52
Play online chess | Finite or infinite?
Message:
If you disregarded the rules of draw then a game could be infinite, given the players wanted it.
But with the rules of draw then a quick calculation would give the longest game with 3200 moves ending in a draw due to the 50 move rule.
The only is that both players have to get the pawns past the opponents pawns without any are taken. I think this can be done, but I can not see if it can without a draw due to the 3 identical possition rule.
Maybe someone else can.
I do not think this long a game can take place as normally the opponents wants to wim.
Sumsar
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Posted by macheide
uskidscompute.com
3/01/2003
08:04:41
Play online chess | pawntificator
Message:
Dear friend,
Here is a real interesting question. As Chess is a perfect information game, according to Theory of Games, there must be a solution to this "game". But the game is so complicated that I think we wont know the solution even with the most advanced technology.
With respect to the white right to move first, you can note that with perfect play, black always is able to equalize (at least) in the first 15 or 20 moves. That makes me suspect that with the ideal perfect play by both sides, every chess game must end in a draw.
Opinions are wellcomed, this is a very interesting theme.
Best regards.
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Posted by pawntificator
uskidscompute.com
3/01/2003
09:41:55
Play online chess | the chicken and the egg
Message:
It is hard to say. Is it that black equalized because the nature of chess is a draw, or is it that white played imperfectly allowing black to equalize? I guess we will never know. But it is fun to think about.
But macheide, what do you think about the potential number of positions in all branches? Infinite or finite?
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Posted by duffer
uskidscompute.com
3/01/2003
10:40:18
Play online chess | white's advantage
Message:
I believe I read somewhere that Fischer said every game is theoretically a draw if played without mistakes.
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Posted by macheide
uskidscompute.com
3/01/2003
12:12:19
Play online chess | pawntificator
Message:
Dear friend,
It has been calculated that the number of different possible chess games is in the order of 10 elevated to the power of 116. That number is descomunal compared with the number of elemental particles of the observable universe! But finite, of course.
Besides, with respect to your comment about if it is because of weak play that the black pieces with perfect play usualy equalize, I think that the reason is oder: one move of advantage is not as big advantage as most people think. Rudolph Spielmann the great combinational player of the beginning of the past century used to say that 3 tempos are equivalent to one pawn (This is of course an approximate rule, but it functions very well). Based on that Spielmann assesment, the advantage of open the game with white pieces is equivalent to one third of a pawn; not so much, dont you think?
But, as you said: it is just speculation, a very interesting one, but just that.
Best regards.
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Posted by scanez
uskidscompute.com
3/01/2003
12:57:45
Play online chess | macheide is perfectly right
Message:
According to elementary (meaning basic) results of game theory, chess (as a finite, zero-sum, two person pefect information game) DOES have a "solution", that is, one player either has a forced win or the game is a forced draw (provided both players play their optimal strategies). In the case of chess, it is known that this "solution" is a draw.
Of course as macheide also said, there's so many possible positions in chess that it is highly doubtful (at this time) that we will ever know the line that leads to a forced draw... but it does exist :)
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Posted by magenta
uskidscompute.com
3/01/2003
13:47:43
Play online chess | white's advantage?
Message:
I personally think that a perfect chess game always would end in a draw. White has a very small advantage that black is very capable to equalize with good moves as the thepry of chess shows us.
But just two questions,
1- Don't you think that white's advantage usually grows because of a psicological problem? I think that a lot of people playing as black feel they are in disadvantage to his opponent.
2- May be there wasn't yet invented an opening for white that manage to keep that very small advantage during all the game.
Instead of these questions, I thin that chess is a draw.
Greetings from Argentina...
MAGENTA
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Posted by macheide
uskidscompute.com
3/01/2003
14:10:57
Play online chess | scanez
Message:
Dear friend,
Thanks for the crystal clear explanation. You have studied Theory of Games. If Johnny von Neumann were alive, he would be happy by so clear an explanation in so a few words.
Thank you.
macheide
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Posted by honololou
uskidscompute.com
3/01/2003
14:45:19
Play online chess | scanez
Message:
Your explanation may have been crystal clear, but is it
correct? You say that it is "known" that a draw can be
forced from the initial position. What is your source for this
information?
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Posted by scanez
uskidscompute.com
3/01/2003
15:17:07
Play online chess | honololou
Message:
My source is all the game theory books I've looked at in graduate school and the game theory course I took as an undergrad ;)
Of course game theory is not my main interest so I don't completely understand the proofs myself... but they're there.
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Posted by amleto
uskidscompute.com
3/01/2003
16:12:54
Play online chess | scanez,
Message:
it may be proven that there is a 'solution' to chess, but it hasn't been proved that the solution is a draw.
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Posted by scanez
uskidscompute.com
3/01/2003
16:17:01
Play online chess | amleto
Message:
Hmm... interesting... looking at some of my old books I find conflicting results. All agree that there is a solution to chess, but some say that solution is a draw... others say it is unknown. I do remember my undergrad prof saying it was a draw though, of course he also said that pi was exactly 3 so not everything he says is reliable :)
Still, I could have sworn I heard of a recent paper that dealt with chess being a draw...
Maybe it was talking about some variant or with some restrictions :)
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Posted by brainattack
uskidscompute.com
3/01/2003
17:41:12
Play online chess | scanez
Message:
sounds extremely doubtful that the result can be predicted given that any solution is not known (or even close). this would be theoretical only.
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Posted by lespaul
uskidscompute.com
3/01/2003
17:51:13
Play online chess | There are two....
Message:
Trains of thought I have on the subject.
One is that 2 people playing 'perfect' chess (if there is such a thing), would draw the game, no matter what. Because each player would have the perfect response to the other player's perfect move.
The second is that BLACK should actually have an advantage if their knowledge of chess is great enough, because they shuold be able to use the strongest known opening against their opponents opening?
Perhaps I'm confused....
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Posted by scanez
uskidscompute.com
3/01/2003
17:56:39
Play online chess | brainattack
Message:
Not really, other games are known to be draws even though the drawing strategy isn't known. Take Go for example. Go is also a finite, zero-sum, perfect information game so it does indeed have a solution, either someone has a forced win or a forced draw. Now, white is given a certain number of points (usually 7 last time I knew) at the beginnning of the game to make up for moving second. If both players play their optimal strategies, this number of points for white could be adjusted so that at the end both players will have the same number, thus giving a draw. For example, if through the optimal strategies, black would come out X number of points ahead of white. We can just give white X number of points to begin with, thus ensuring the game will end in a draw.
Of course in chess, black doesn't get anything special to make up for moving second. But still Go gives an example of a game that should end in a draw even though currently we don't know the drawing strategies.
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Posted by amleto
uskidscompute.com
3/01/2003
17:59:29
Play online chess | lespaul,
Message:
your thinking is slighlty flawed.
if white plays perfectly, then MAYBE he creates more threats than can be dealt with, even with best responses.
however, the proof of this has yet to be seen.
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Posted by brainattack
uskidscompute.com
3/01/2003
18:03:11
Play online chess | scanez
Message:
can you explain the go example more.
sounds like you saying you adjust scores depending on the advantage the first player has (but the magnitude of this advantage not known?), in order to make perfect play a draw? Have I misunderstood?
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Posted by amleto
uskidscompute.com
3/01/2003
18:10:11
Play online chess | brainattack
Message:
i think u have understood what i have understood.
from what i can gather, the seven points that white is awarded is a guess, that tries to assure perfect play on both sides ends in a draw.
however, perfect play has not yet been discovered so the magnitude of the advantage is also unknown, hence 'guess'.
if perfect play was know, then so would the magnitude of the advantage, and the initial points for white could thus be adjusted accordingly.
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Posted by pawntificator
uskidscompute.com
3/02/2003
01:38:08
Play online chess | Go
Message:
I have been trying to understand this game, but I haven't played it enough. It is still a mystery to me. I guess Lasker (Em.) loved it. So I want to learn it too. It may help with strategy.
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Posted by atrifix
uskidscompute.com
3/02/2003
06:53:20
Play online chess | Well
Message:
no one has anywhere enar a definitive answer on the solution of chess. Most think it's a draw, a few think it's a win for White, and a very select few claim it's a Black win. The reason for this is practical experience. Many openinigs have been analyzed out to the point of virtual equality, and it's difficult to come up with improvements in most cases.
The reason so few people think that chess is theoretically a Black win is because the goal of the game is checkmate, and generally, each move brings you closer to checkmating. In order to believe that Black wins, you have to believe that the initial position is zugzwang, which seems highly unlikely given practical experience.
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Posted by cheesemuffin
uskidscompute.com
3/02/2003
09:49:31
Play online chess | Chess is a draw
Message:
But that does not mean that there is one model game. e.g. on move 1, d4 leads to a draw, e4 leads to a draw, even a3 leads to a draw, so, rather than 1 perfect game, there are millions, all of which lead to a draw.
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Posted by amleto
uskidscompute.com
3/02/2003
10:55:22
Play online chess | cheesy,
Message:
i think it should be obvious that there isnt one model game, but to say all the model games are draws as-a-matter-of-fact requires a little more backup :P
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Posted by brainattack
uskidscompute.com
3/02/2003
12:02:32
Play online chess | draw
Message:
so what does 1.g4 lead to?
Can it ever be a draw?
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Posted by scanez
uskidscompute.com
3/02/2003
12:36:33
Play online chess | amleto
Message:
If chess is a draw, then ALL model games MUST lead to draws. (If by model you mean each player plays their best strategies)
This is a consequence of the result I stated above that there do exist optimal strategies for each player that lead to either a forced win for one player or a forced draw. If one optimal strategy led to a draw, then a strategy that led to one player losing wouldn't be an optimal one and hence a game played with these wouldn't be a "model game".
cheesemuffin: There very well could be one and only one optimal strategy for each player that gives rise to the model game. We just don't know right now.
brainattack: the 7 points in Go is as amleto said just a guess made by current experts. It very well could be that with 7 points black can still force a win. However, the adjusted game where white was given X number of points to begin with would indeed be a draw using the best strategies possible.
Tomorrow when I can get to the school library I'm going to research this a bit more and see what I come up with :)
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Posted by amleto
uskidscompute.com
3/04/2003
06:59:49
Play online chess | scanez
Message:
If chess is a draw, then all model games must be a draw - yes i agree with that.
But
maybe d4 leads to a white win - no one know for sure, so it cannot be said that all model games lead to draws.
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Posted by stratus
uskidscompute.com
3/04/2003
08:38:42
Play online chess | about the tempo
Message:
White have always first tempo and if there is a strong, aggressive player on the white side, and the black player is fighting defensivly - the gained tempos are able to crash the black even if there is some less material on white side and even the most bryliant black responses.
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Posted by amleto
uskidscompute.com
3/04/2003
09:52:09
Play online chess | stratus
Message:
i understand what you mean - extra tempos can be a powerful thing but your references to 'strong', 'aggressive' and 'defensively' are irrelevant in what we seem to be calling model games - the best moves are the best moves, irrespective of the type of person playing black or white.
i think your conclusion is made upon the assumption that black has no aspirations of victory. in a model game, maybe a draw is all black can hope for, who knows?
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Posted by koenba
uskidscompute.com
3/08/2003
15:49:51
Play online chess | Mike can give the answer.
Message:
At this moment about 907,000 games are completed.
What is the ratio w/b on winning?
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