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| Posted by clemens uskidscompute.com 2/24/2003 02:07:59 Play online chess |  Subject: EndgameMessage: I just drew an endgame in a minitournament and am not really sure if I or my opponent should be happy about the draw, or if it was justified. Could some of the experienced chess players here look at board #608551 and give an assessment? My endgame skill is notoriously poor and I'm happy about any chance to learn about it. Don't worry, the game is finished, so it will be alright to comment on it. The pathetic bit of analysis I can come up with: black has a rook for a bishop, however white has ample compensation in form of three pawns, so actually white is up material. White has a dangerous passed pawn on the sixth, however he will have trouble promoting it because of the rook. Should black ever move his rook away from the eighth rank, white could think of Bd5, a7, a8=Q; black, on the other hand, can not do anything productive with his rook stuck to defending the back rank. This "deadlock" is why I believe that the draw might be justified, but again, I'm really poor when it comes to the endgame. Regards, Clemens |
| Posted by zdrak uskidscompute.com 2/24/2003 02:43:26 Play online chess | Message: Instead of 40.Kf2, white would win quickly after 40.Bc6 - black has to give up the rook for a pawn in 2-3 moves. As for the final position, this is a clear advantage for white. No reason why white should agree to a draw. |
| Posted by clemens uskidscompute.com 2/24/2003 02:59:29 Play online chess | Message: First of all, thanks for your attention! I was thinking about 40. Bc6, but I was afraid of 40. ...Kd6 - what could I do about this? Simply 41. Be4 ? Then black can guard the a7 square, and I'm stuck again. Or 41. Bb7 ? In any case, it again shows how terrible my endgame is. What can I do about this? Any good books? Regards, Clemens ——— Vladimir Kramnik edges ahead — Vishy Anand may have taken Vladimir Kramnik’s world title but he did him a favour in tenth round at Corus chess tournament when he broke his run of nine draws and defeated the co-leader Alexey Shirov. It was Shirov’s first defeat and Kramnik’s nervy draw with Vassily Ivanchuk gave him the sole lead on 7/10 with three to play but as well as Shirov he has world number one Magnus Carlsen in hot pursuit. Carlsen defeated Sergey Karjakin in what your correspondent found a mystifying game in which Karjakin, playing white seemed to have the initiative and better placed pieces but was soon worse. So the chess tournament is set up perfectly for ... |
| Posted by zdrak uskidscompute.com 2/24/2003 03:35:49 Play online chess | Message: Ok, It's actually not so simple as I first thought. Still, 40.Bc6 does win: 40.Bc6 Kd6 41.Be4 Rd7 (only move to stop a7) 42.d4! Now the black king cannot approach the pawn, and black is left with a choice of evils: a. 42...Ke7 43.Bb7 followed by 44.a7 b. 42...Kc7 43.a7 wins outright c. 42...Ra7 43.Bb7 and the rook is trapped d. 42...Rc7 43.c4 bxc3 44.bxc3 and white has 2 more passed pawns (44...Rxc3?? 45.a7), and cannot be stopped from playing c3-c4-c5+ e. 42...Re7 43.c4 - same as above. f. 42...f5 43.Bxf5 Ra7 44.Bd3 Kd5 45.c3 - similar to the game, but black has FOUR extra pawns now g. 42...g6 (hoping to play f5 without sacing a pawn) 43.f4 (preparing a retreat for the bishop) f5 44.Bf3 and black's problems remain. Let me know if you see a hole here ... ——— Kramnik claims Carlsen — Vladimir Kramnik played what he described as feeling like “his greatest ever game” to defeat Magnus Carlsen in the ninth round of the Corus chess tournament at Wijk aan Zee. The former world chess champion moved into the joint lead with Alexey Shirov and avenged his defeat at Carlsen’s hands at last December’s London Chess Classic. Scores with four to play: 1-2 Shirov, Kramnik 6.5/9; 3-4 Carlsen, Karjakin 5.5; 5-7 Ivanchuk, Dominguez, Nakamura 5; 8-9 Leko, Anand 4.5; 10 Caruana 3.5; 11-13 Tiviakov, Short, Van Wely 3; 14 Smeets 2.5; ... |
| Posted by mormel12 uskidscompute.com 2/24/2003 03:39:33 Play online chess | well, i'm not that good Message: but after Kd6 i would have played Bb7 followed by c4. greetings ——— Shirov in Sveshnikov — Vladimir Kramnik made his move in the eighth round of the Corus chess tournament at Wijk aan Zee and defeated the US chess champion Hikaru Nakamura to join Magnus Carlsen in second place. Alexey Shirov remains half a point ahead with five to play and he tested Magnus Carlsen’s chess opening preparation by challenging him to repeat the line that decided last year’s MTel tournament when Carlsen lost badly. A fascinating game. In the Sveshnikov Sicilian Black often sacrifices pawns for activity. White is three pawns ahead at the end but cannot coordinate. ... |
| Posted by clemens uskidscompute.com 2/24/2003 03:52:17 Play online chess | Message: zdrak: Wow, thanks a lot for the detailed analysis. I wish I could find moves like 42. d4! Well, maybe that will come with experience... mormel12: you might be right... but i don't know, maybe black should play bxc3 e.p. (after c4) and try to pick up the hanging pawns; after all, my king is still far away from the action. ——— Hikaru beats leader at Corus Chess Tournament — Let's start with an update to the Corus Chess Tournament, which is getting more exciting by the day. It had seemed that U.S. chess champion Hikaru Nakamura's bid to win the event might be slipping away. Coming into the seventh round Saturday, Hikaru had made three straight draws. He was tied for second place, 1.5 points behind the leader, Alexei Shirov of Spain. Not a bad showing, but the 22-year-old New Yorker has ambitions of winning the chess tournament and clearly establishing himself as one of the world's elite players. So for Hikaru, Saturday was crucial. He was paired against Shirov and had the advantage of playing the white pieces. Here was a chance to cut ... |
| Posted by cavturbo uskidscompute.com 2/24/2003 04:35:41 Play online chess | Message: I agree with everyone else you shouldn't of resigned. On move 40 you had a very dominant position, not so good by move 45 but you will still win providing you made no mistakes. I agree with mormel12: I would have moved Bd7 next, if you moved Be4 then as Black I would of moved f5, if you take the pawn the rook will capture your pawn on a6 then becoming dangerous again. White would gain 2 pawns but black would also take the pawn on b2. Right after 41 Bd7 I would expect he game to go, 41 Bd7 Kc7 42 Kf2 f5 43 Ke3 Re8+ 44 Kd2 f4 45 c3 bxc3+ 46 bxc3 Re6 47 c4 Rg6 48 d4 Rxg2+ 49 Kd3 I think you get the picture where the game is going from here. ——— The Scotch Opening, part 3: the Kasparov approach — The former world champion was responsible for a revival of interest in the chess opening. But how does he exploit it here? More on the Scotch. Garry Kasparov was responsible for its revival. Here he finds his e-pawn under pressure. What should he play? RB There are so many possibilities that I'm going to have to go through a process of elimination. We can discard the obvious hara-kiri options of 1 cxd5 and 1 exf6 Qb4+. Nor does 1 f4 fxe5 2 fxe5 Qg5 look particularly appealing. 1 Bg2 looks like it just loses a pawn and gives Black all the play after 1...fxe5 2 0-0, and 1 e6 is just bad. Nor do 1 Nd2, 1 Kd1 and 1 Ba3 solve the problem. That leaves ... |
| Posted by clemens uskidscompute.com 2/24/2003 05:10:14 Play online chess | Message: cavturbo: I didn't actually resign, but I know what you mean :) When you say Bd7, you mean Bb7, don't you? I now see that on move 40 I was too fixated on immediately queening my pawn. I didn't recognize that I could leave the pawn as a constant threat while making use of my other pawns. However, I still don't see how I should continue in the final position. Could someone give a line? Again, thanks for all the high quality input! I appreciate it. |
| Posted by cavturbo uskidscompute.com 2/24/2003 05:19:38 Play online chess | Message: Yes I meant accept a draw by resigning the win not the best choice of word, and yes I also meant Bb7 as Be4 would lose you a tempo. There are so many lines and counter lines open, but I will have a think me vs me. |
| Posted by desertfox uskidscompute.com 2/24/2003 05:32:30 Play online chess | This looks like a draw to me Message: In the final position, black continues with Re8-d8+, white goes Ke4-f4 and then Re8-e7. After than I don't see how white can make any progress. Can you? try and see for yourself. You saved yourself time by agreeing to a draw. |
| Posted by zdrak uskidscompute.com 2/24/2003 05:58:43 Play online chess | Message: I disagree. After 45...Rd8+ 46.Kf4 Re7 47.h4 white's plan is to advance the pawn to h5 and exchange it for the black g-pawn. This will open the way for the white king to f5, from where it can attack f6, and possibly later h6. According to the principle of "two weaknesses" black should lose - he needs to tend to the a-pawn as well as stop the white king from penetrating. Although it's a very difficult position, and I cannot provide a conclusive analisys to prove that "white moves and wins", there are certainly excellent winning prospects for white, and no need to agree to a draw. Possibly there are other good ideas for white instead of 47.h4 as well ... |
| Posted by zdrak uskidscompute.com 2/24/2003 06:08:31 Play online chess | Message: Here's one line: 45...Rd8+ 46.Kf4 Re7 47.h4 g5+ (black tries to stop white from achieving the above-mentioned plan) 48.hxg5 fxg5+ 49.Kf5 Rc7 50.Kg6 Rc6+ 51.Kh5 Kb6 52.d4 Rd6 53.Bd3 Rxd4 (black will lose h6 anyway, as Bg6 and Kxh6 are imminent) 54.Kxh6 Rd5 55.Bf5 Kxa6 56.Kxg5 The a-passer was lost, but the f- and g- pawns are more that enough for white ... not a forced line of course, but a good demonstration of the trouble black is in. |
| Posted by cavturbo uskidscompute.com 2/24/2003 06:33:41 Play online chess | Message: I've had another look at the game again and it looks like a very boring draw, Black knows he can't win unless White makes a mistake so will play for a draw. ZDRAK - If I was Black I wouldn't move 47 g5+ I would move Kd4, supporting a possible move of my rook to e5. If white now moves h5, he is in trouble. |
| Posted by desertfox uskidscompute.com 2/24/2003 06:42:13 Play online chess | My dear analyzers Message: Black does not play g5+, he plays rook to E5. White still wins? Show me how. Desertfox |
| Posted by atrifix uskidscompute.com 2/24/2003 06:49:36 Play online chess | Not so simple Message: The problem with 40. Bc6 Kd6 41. Be4? is 41... f5! 42. Bb7 (42. Bxf5 Ra8=) Kc7 43. Kf2 b3! 44. cxb3 Rxd3, and now 45. Be4 would win (45... Rd8 46. a7) if not for 45... fxe4. After 41. Bb7 White should eventually win, following the entrance of his King to the queenside and the advance of the b, c, and d-pawns. White simply has too many pawns for the exchange. The final position is dead drawn with accurate play, e.g., 45... Re8+ 46. Kf4 Re7 47. h4 Re5! and White has to continue with 48. Kg3 to play h5, or play the immediate 48. h5 g5+ with a draw--in either case White's King never gets to f5. The second weakness of the a6-pawn isn't really a weakness as the Bishop alone can't force the advance to a8, and the King has no reasonable way of supporting it. But the real mistake IMO is 44. b3?? (43. Ke4 also has no point). The move permanently renders white's 4-1 majority useless. There's no threat of ...b3, so why voluntarily forfeit queenside play? White should try to advance c2-c3 and advance all the queenside pawns, with good winning chances, although no clear win is in sight. So 43. c3 would have been logical, or 43. Kd2. In any case White maintains good winning chances with no possibility of losing. |
| Posted by clemens uskidscompute.com 2/24/2003 07:18:17 Play online chess | Message: This thread has gotten way over my head :) The reason I (wrongly) played b3 was because I thought I could then play d4, driving the king out of c5, which of course was nonsense because the rook could simply take the pawn with check. However, I only noticed this after I had made the offending move :-/ These are the stupid mistakes we beginners make... And Ke4 was following the basic endgame principle to bring the king into the centre for the endgame, lacking a clear plan. |
| Posted by atrifix uskidscompute.com 2/24/2003 08:24:56 Play online chess | Of course Message: the King is *generally* centralized, but there has to be a point to it :) Eventual penetration of the King to the Queenside should win in this case. 43. Ke4 isn't so bad but doesn't really have a point (other than threaten to play Kf5, which is tactically impossible), however, the move can always be retracted (best is probably 44. Ke3). Unfortunately, b3-b2 is an illegal move. The best advice I can offer you on endgames: don't rush! You may not always come to the absolute "true" fastest winning method, but you'll win a lot more often than you lose. Always take the time to develop a plan slowly and methodically, and make sure to cut down on your opponent's counterplay. You should always carefully examine moves like b3, analyze everything, and then re-examine them before playing them. In the endgame, it's almost always better to methodically eliminate counteropportunities for the opponent rather than to engage in a middlegame-like tactical race (assuming you're trying to win, of course--if you're trying to draw, throw in as many complications as possible). As for books--for reference works, try Fundamental Chess Endings by Muller and Lamprecht or Fine's BCE (currently undergoing a massive revision by Benko, I believe). For studying, Seirawan's Winning Chess Endings is good but out of print. I'd also recommend Shereshevsky's Endgame Strategy, if you can find a copy of either of those. |
| Posted by clemens uskidscompute.com 2/24/2003 08:47:57 Play online chess | Message: Thanks, this sounds like good advice, I will remember it. |
| Posted by macheide uskidscompute.com 2/24/2003 09:29:38 Play online chess | clemens Message: Dear friend, Im not going to write about the possibilities on move 40 or before, but about the final position: Even with your material advantage, it seems to me very difficult to materialize it after: 45...Rd4+, 46.Ke3 g5! Any opinion will be wellcomed. Best regards. |
| Posted by clemens uskidscompute.com 2/24/2003 10:08:37 Play online chess | Message: macheide, I think you are right; although I am still not quite sure whether the position is a _theoretical_ draw, I am convinced that it was above my level of skill to win it. Therefore, I am now content with my decision to draw the game at this point. Regards, Clemens |
| Posted by macheide uskidscompute.com 2/24/2003 10:29:00 Play online chess | clemens Message: Dear friend, Dont punish yourself. The only one with winning chances in that position was you, but you have said that in this moment your endgame skill its not so high, you could made some mistake, so I think it was a wise choice. Best regards. |
| Posted by mormel12 uskidscompute.com 2/24/2003 10:48:34 Play online chess | yes Message: half a loaf is better than no bread:) also thanks for your advice atrifix, although it wasn't directly for me, i guess i can make a profit of it:) greetings |