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cairo 18 ( +1 | -1 )
Lisitsin Opening, A04 1.Nf3,f5 2.e4,fxe4 3.Ng5,d5

Anyone have experience with this bizarre opening?

Best wishes
Cairo

chessnovice 49 ( +1 | -1 )
... I have never experienced the Lisitsin Opening, although I have heard of it. If someone were to play 1. ... f5 in response to the Reti Opening at my club, I would probably give it a try. Of course, some people might choose to play 1. Nf3 f5 2. e4 e5, transposing into the Latvian Gambit instead. Here are some games for you, though:

www.chessgames.com/perl/chess.pl?node=589019
cairo 19 ( +1 | -1 )
Thanks for the link chessnovice :-))

Best wishes
Cairo
galan 16 ( +1 | -1 )
Sorry, chessnovice - but how did you get to that link ?!? Somehow I fail to insert the right search criteria - and the help says 'one should use advanced search', but where is it ??? :-(
chessnovice 21 ( +1 | -1 )
.. I used the Chess Opening Explorer in www.chessgames.com, and followed the movelist that he described.

www.chessgames.com/perl/explorer
error 5 ( +1 | -1 )
chessgames.com really is a great site, I check it daily.
marxisgod21 32 ( +1 | -1 )
Try 3...Nc6 I would recommend 3...Nc6 against the Lisitsin Gambit. The idea is that 4. Nxe4?! d5 5. Ng3 e5 yields black a gigantic center while 4. d3 can be met with 4...e3! 5. Bxe3 e5 again with a strong center and easy development. 3...d5 is certainly playable, but I don't think black needs to be greedy about his pawns when he can sensibly develop.
chuckventimiglia 3 ( +1 | -1 )
Isn't that basically a.... King's Indian? New to me. Chuck
jstack 23 ( +1 | -1 )
Leningrad dutch I have a book "Understanding the leningrad dutch" by Valeri Beim .
This line was in a chapter called 1. Nf3 f5
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The author gives
1.Nf3,f5 2.e4,fxe4 3.Ng5
A) 3.. Nf6
B) 3.. Nc6
C) 3..d5

The author seems to think all of these lines give black at least equality.
bonsai 34 ( +1 | -1 )
Out of the three options given by Beim I have to say that 3...Nc6 (as mentioned by marxisgod21) is the easiest to play as black. The other options seem much more tactical and that is presumably what white wants. I stopped worrying about the Lisitsin after discovering that system in the Dutch Leningrad book by Kindermann.
jstack 31 ( +1 | -1 )
Hey Bonsai I'm curious does kinderman give any lines for 7. Bd3!? Beim does not even mention it. Its clear after 6. Be2 black is better, but after 6. d4 pxp 7. Bd3 things are far from clear.
.
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1.Nf3 f5 2.e4 fxe4 3.Ng5 Nc6 4.d3 e3 5.Bxe3 e5 6.d4 exd4 7.Bd3
If 7..pxB 8. Qh5+ g6 9. Bxp+ with a mating attack
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the main line appears to be
7... Nf6 8.Bf4 Bb4+ 9.c3 Qe7+ 10.Kd2 Bd6 11.Bg3 Bxg3 12.hxg3 with complicated play


basti1981 29 ( +1 | -1 )
No KID It's not a King's Indian, there's a certain similarity to it, but the response 1. ... f5 is rather Dutch than King's Indian, in the KID you have usually played e5 and castled before you attack White's center via f7-f5 and there some more fundamental differences that make it not look like a typical KID.
jstack 79 ( +1 | -1 )
similar to KID One of blacks main ideas in the KID is to play f5 for a kings side attack. The problem is it takes a long time to prepare. The kings knight has to retreat to d7 or e8. Then f5 can be played but for blacks play to be successful the knight needs to be on f6 putting pressure on e4. So the knight has to move to f6 before mounting an attack. All this takes time and by the time black gets the knight into position(f6) white has plenty of counterplay on the queenside.
The main idea in the leningrad dutch is to get into a KID type position where black is up two tempos(not having to retreat the knight in order to play f5). The problem is black has pretty severe white square weaknesses and there are plenty of lines where white tries to exploit them. However, if black can survive the attack, his chances for success are good.
bonsai 61 ( +1 | -1 )
jstack: No, Kindermann doesn't mention that idea. It's interesting. But is the attack after 1.Nf3 f5 2.e4 fxe4 3.Ng5 Nc6 4.d3 e3 5.Bxe3 e5 6.d4 exd4 7.Bd3 dxe3 8.Qh5+ g6 9.Bxg6+ actually that good for white? 9...Ke7 might actually be okay for black, e.g. 10.Nf7 hxg6 11.Qxg6 Rh6 12.Qxg8 exf2+ 13.Kf1 Qe8 14.Nxh6 Bxh6. Admittedly that's not a particularly easy to play position for either side, but I didn't see anything that wins for white.

The line with 7...Nf6 looks much saner though, but I suppose this might be a reasonable variation for white if he wants more complicated positions than he will get in all other lines.
basti1981 30 ( +1 | -1 )
jstack yes and no, as I said, there's a certain similarity to some lines of the KID (despite the fact that there are some lines, in which black attacks the center via c5 and in that lines f7-f5 is rather "unusual"), but the position is in some points pretty unlike a KID e.g. pushing its pawn to d5 is not a typical KID move for black.
jstack 31 ( +1 | -1 )
Basti1981 Leningrad game plan I always try to play the leningrad dutch like a KID. The startegy about playing the dutch like a KID(trying to get up 2 tempo) , I learned from Beim's book. "understanding the leningrad dutch" This was the main strategy he emphasized. Is there a different method of playing the leningrad dutch? Do you think it is superior?
jstack 22 ( +1 | -1 )
Also Basti... I am a little confused about your reference to d5. According to Beim, d5 is rarely a good move in the leningrad dutch. According to Beim, black should be playing d6..and prepare for e5. Maybe you are thinking of stonewall dutch??
basti1981 81 ( +1 | -1 )
ref. to post #1
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"From Message
cairo

2/18/2004
06:18:15
[ report this post ] Subject: Lisitsin Opening, A04

Message:
1.Nf3,f5 2.e4,fxe4 3.Ng5,d5"

That's the position I was talking about, looks more Dutch than King's Indian to me. :)

that's how the thread started ;)
ok if you are talking about the Leningrad Dutch in general you're right there's some kind of similarity to the KID, even if the Dutch has some aspects that make it imho a bit weaker than the KID (the diagonal a2-g8 is probably a bit more vulnerable than in the KID, but on the other hand black's dark bishop has more space than in the classical KID variations with e5) There are some slight differences but the main ideas are very similar between Dutch (leningrad variation) and some lines of the KID; you are right about that.